Talk:Doctor Psycho (Earth-Two)
The inspiration for Doctor Psycho "In 1916, Marston’s undergraduate adviser, Hugo Münsterberg, who ran Harvard’s Psychological Laboratory, published a psychological theory of cinema. (Münsterberg, who vehemently opposed both the suffrage and the feminist movements, is the inspiration for Wonder Woman’s arch-nemesis, Doctor Psycho.)" "The Last Amazon" (September 22, 2014) New Yorker. This would qualify as a reliable source for wikipedia so why not here?--BruceGrubb (talk) 23:45, October 21, 2017 (UTC) :Yes, I'm with you. There's nothing speculative about it, it's been documented in several academic books. Evanash24 (talk) 01:50, October 22, 2017 (UTC) ::It's still Jill Lepore's speculation. In that quote, she does not show how she came to that conclusion. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 09:24, October 22, 2017 (UTC) :::The 'doesn't show how they came to that conclusion' counterargument is beyond silly. A majority of references on wikipedia are similar to Conan-Doyle's complaint regarding old detective stories: they get there but they don't give an explanation. As long as they fit the criteria of reliable they are usable...even if they are wrong. Per Conflict between sources if a reliable source that even indirectly shows a higher tier source is talking nonsense then the discrepancy is noted. Now which gets priority (WWII starting on 1939 rather then 1931 for instance); that is a whole different matter. :::Heck, both Crisis on Infinite Earths: The Compendium and EWWE don't tell us how they came to the conclusion that story x happened on Earth y and we use them. Besides on occasion we break with what the reliable sources state and use something else entirely.--BruceGrubb (talk) 11:06, October 22, 2017 (UTC) :::: Would the note be acceptable if it was phrased, ‘Jill Lepore speculated that...’? --Arise Etrigan (talk) 11:14, October 22, 2017 (UTC) :::The difference between EWWE/AbsCOIE and Lepore is that the former two are (licensed) DC works, and Lepore's is not. Also, the former two deal with in-universe fiction, whilst the latter deals with real world history. It baffles me how someone can see the two as alike. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 11:21, October 22, 2017 (UTC) ::::Same way I see a Klingon battlecruiser/generic spaceship in card VI of the Rorschach test perhaps? :-) Seriously Lepore is not the only one saying this. Looking for more I found Wonder Woman Masterpiece Edition via google books but that is fragmentary (perhaps someone in a different place can tell us what is in that section). Held's later Wonder Woman and Philosophy has a whole section called "Hugo Münsterberg as Dr. Psycho." And that is published by Wiley-Blackwell, one of the most academic sources around.--BruceGrubb (talk) 11:31, October 22, 2017 (UTC) ::FWIW, Munsterberg was a colorful, controversial, memorable character; Marston was familiar with him personally, and based his own academic work on his teachings; Marston's character Psycho shares many attitudes and opinions with Munsterberg. So either Marston had Munsterberg in mind when creating Psycho, or those linkages are just meaningless coincidence. From here that looks more like deductive reasoning than wild speculation. ::If Lepore provided more details to support the speculation, or showed diagrams or mathematical calculations to support it, and those don't fit neatly into a footnote on a wiki page, well at least there are links provided for doubters or skeptics, if interested, to investigate the claim. It seems, here, like Lepore's speculations are being held to a higher academic standard than the typical comicbook database footnote. Stoop Davy Dave (talk) 11:51, October 22, 2017 (UTC) ::There's a difference between "is inspired by" and "has many similarities with". With the sources, I have no problem with the latter wording. Like "Multiple researchers have noted similarities between bla bla bla bla etc.123". We'll just have to assume they don't all parrot each other. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 11:54, October 22, 2017 (UTC) :::Actually in some cases as with Sherlock Holmes vs Sir Arthur Conan-Doyle and Joseph Bell "is inspired by" and "has many similarities with" are the same thing. Heck, Professor Moriarty's title "Napoleon of crime" is taken verbatim from a Scotland Yard inspector's comment on Adam Worth. In other cases the "is inspired by" has total disconnect "has many similarities with". Vlad Tepes Dracula vs Count Dracula is a prime example of that. Heck, many a movie has "is inspired by true events"/"based on actual events" even when its story is so divorced from the actual events that the relationship is next to nil. It is effectively a distinction that has no meaning ala color vs colour.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:06, October 22, 2017 (UTC) ::::But not this case. "Inspired by" places an explicit link. Without clear creator intent, it's safer to go for "has similarities with". --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 12:14, October 22, 2017 (UTC) :::::Give how abused "is inspired by" has become any differences from "has similarities with" is a distinction that has no meaning. CineFix has a host of "What's the Difference?" videos with Who Framed Roger Rabbit - What’s The Difference? being one of the more extreme examples. In some cases the "is inspired by" is just one small detail. For example, about every vampire story and movie where the vampire is harmed by sunlight "is inspired by" Nosferatu (1922) as in vampire stories up to that time many vampire "species" were active in daylight (thankfully they didn't glow in sunlight.) Captain Kronos — Vampire Hunter is one of the few films that actually goes back to the original mythology rather then Nosferatu regarding a vampire being active in sunlight.--BruceGrubb (talk) 12:37, October 22, 2017 (UTC) :::::The internet lists too many things supposedly "inspired by" without noting explicit creator intent. That doesn't mean we have to follow that. None of your myriad examples - some of which, for the sake of the discussion, I might add, you add after other people have replied (I can't reply without getting at least one edit conflict) - are relevant here. Doctor Psycho has similarities with Hugo Münsterberg. It's possible, even likely, he was inspired by, but there's no explicit link (at least, none in the evidence you provided). --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 12:44, October 22, 2017 (UTC) :::::You can't really say it was written in one book, and then have the ref link to an article that happens to be by the same writer. That's not a reference. :::::"Several researchers noted the similarities between Doctor Psycho and title and position it was again... . Both were bla bla bla ..., bla bla bla ... and bla bla bla ....Lepore blaWonder Woman Masterpiece EditionWonder Woman and Philosophy" With said sources in chronological order. Preferably after all of the references have been read by someone here. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 13:30, October 22, 2017 (UTC) :::: What you keep misunderstanding, Tupka, is that whether you want to admit it or not, Lepore demonstrates through her book that Marston's personal life had an indelible effect on his Wonder Woman stories. I can come up with a handful of examples directly from her work. Olive Byrne's bangles inspire Wonder Woman's bracelets. Marston attends baby parties at Tufts University, so too does Wonder Woman. Marston invents the lie detector, guess what shows up in Wonder Woman? We are arguing about something literally trivial. A footnote to a Golden Age article. Yes, if you want to keep being pedantic about it, we may be "speculating," but you really don't have any grounds to keep erasing the conclusions we reach. Evanash24 (talk) 16:16, October 22, 2017 (UTC) :::::I'm pedantic, and can't find the off switch at the moment, I'm afraid. But it's not as big an issue as you seem to make it. :::::I don't deny that this could be true. I don't claim Lepore or any of the others don't know their stuff. I just want to exercise caution. The Internet is full of "facts" that, well, aren't. :::::I suggested a different, safer, wording above. I have yet to hear any thoughs on that. --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 16:23, October 22, 2017 (UTC) ::::::Lepore's work drew almost exclusively from Marston's own correspondence, diaries, and records and constant contact with his living sons, as well as an extensive archival list. I understand that you wish to exercise equal caution across the board, but to say that you're just "being careful" in the face of Lepore's extensive bibliography of Marston's life just seems silly. It also seemed to me that there was an edit made using your language which was erased. Evanash24 (talk) 17:14, October 22, 2017 (UTC) :::::::That was removed on a technicality. It started with paraphrased "In Lepore's work The Secret History of Wonder Woman, she said X", but the source was a separate article by the same author in which she merely repeated the claim without explanation. :::::::Considering other sources were found, which was the earliest? "Wonder Woman Masterpiece Edition" (by Les Daniels) was from 2001 and "Wonder Woman and Philosophy" (by Held and Irwin, eds.) from 2017. If someone said it before Lepore, shouldn't they get the credit too? --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 17:24, October 22, 2017 (UTC) ::::::::Sometimes the first doesn't get the credit. For example, did Louis Pasteur or Nicolas Appert discover that heat sterilized food? Wikipedia:Inaccuracy gives examples of how even reliable sources can get it wrong but nothing on that scale has been presented regarding Münsterberg and Doctor Psycho. While it is true "The Internet is full of "facts" that, well, aren't." the same is true of printed sources so that is IMHO a cop out. How long was Edison presented as the inventor of the electric light (let's just forget the arc light), for example?--BruceGrubb (talk) 11:11, October 23, 2017 (UTC) :::That's not a reason to completely forgo Daniels here. Has anyone read that work? --[[User:Tupka217|'Tupka']]''217'' 11:46, October 23, 2017 (UTC)